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Kamilah Kashanie (KK): We’re all searching for acceptance and love… and we all need support.

 

But not everyone gets that luxury…

 

Tony Perri (TP): One thing your grandmother had asked me to do when we separated was, ‘please never tell the children’.

 

Claude Bowen (CB): My older sister said I was going to hell. She just knew I was going to hell because the Bible said I was going to hell. 

 

KK: In this episode, we’ll hear conversations from queer folks across generations… 

 

And how two older gay men… ultimately resisted the pressure to hide themselves…

 

 

KK: We usually lean on our elders for wisdom and support… but in this story it’s the other way around…

 

It’s the StoryCorps Podcast from NPR. I’m Kamilah Kashanie.

 

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KK: Tony Perri grew up in Niagara Falls, NY in the 1950s…back when being gay was known about… but not talked about…

 

He was from a big Italian family, raised a devout Catholic… so he kept his sexuality to himself…  

 

In 2009 he shared his story with his grandson, Jeffrey, …

 

TP: I knew at a very young age about six or seven years old that I was different, I didn’t have a name for it. I remember when I was about 17, I went to confess and told a priest that I thought there was something a little different in me, that I was attracted to men. And the only advice he gave me was, ‘Be careful who you tell that to, son.’ 

 

KK: And Tony listened… 

 

He kept his secret all through high school…

 

And then he joined the Navy… got married and had three children…

 

But one day, he decided to come clean to his wife…

 

TP: I mentioned that I thought I might be gay. That was probably, you know, some of the problems in our marriage and that it wasn’t fair to her. And I still, I had not had a gay sexual experience I had been very faithful to my marriage, thats’ not patting me on the back, It’s just the way it was. 

 

Then after that, we didn’t talk about it for about another three years. And then finally she suggested I go to a psychiatrist and get some help. 

 

So I went to a psychiatrist, left his office and went to a gay bar, had my first gay experience.

 

JP: Wow.

 

TP: And I was 35 years old at that time. The marriage lasted another two years, unfortunately after that, I could not in all good conscience stay in the marriage. 

 

It was a very difficult time, a very difficult period. But we survived.

 

KK: He stayed involved in the family and kept raising his kids… 

And over time he slowly started coming out to his family… including his eight grandkids…

In their StoryCorps conversation… Tony remembered when Jeffrey learned the truth… 

 

TP:  You were nine years old and Uncle John and I had just split up. And you came to visit me, and I was taking you to the Broadway show Annie. 

You had asked me, ‘Where did Uncle John sleep?’ And I didn’t lie to you. I remember you asking me, ‘Does Grandma Shirley know you’re gay?’ And then you asked me, ‘Does my father know you’re gay? Does my mother know you’re gay?’ [laughs]

Most of the important people in my life knew, but I was just so proud, just to be honest. And and that’s what I’ve strived for all my life, just to, just to live honestly.

 

KK: And Tony was there for Jeff… when he had his own moment… of self-acceptance…

 

JP: I remember going in my mom’s closet and dressing up in her high heels. 

 

TP: I used to do the same thing.

 

TP: I used to play with paper dolls, I loved paper dolls. 

 

JP: Oh Barbies, I loved babies. I remember going to mom’s closet, grabbing those shoes. Struttin My little butt. [laughs]

 

TP:hm hmm. Your emerging dragness.. 

 

JP: And realizing that I was different, we’ll say the word different. You know, when I was 13 years old, I came out of the closet, to everybody. But, The first person to know wasn’t you, Papa. I was uh, I think, afraid of what you would think. Would you be afraid for me? I was–

 

TP: That’s very real. And had all those when you did,  

 

JP: I actually knew this lesbian couple when I was doing community theater. They really helped me out a lot. And, ‘Well, you know, tell it. Tell your close friends first. Be careful who you tell.’

 

TP: Mm hmm.  Just Like that priest that day. 

 

JP: Just like that priest. It comes full circle with us. Huh?

 

TP:  Yeah yeah.

 

JP: But having a gay grandfather. Everyone was used to it in the family. So coming out was easy. 

 

You are my role model. 

 

TP: Love it. 

 

JP: I mean, who am I going to go to with sexual questions? I mean, you’ve been around. [LAUGH]

 

TP: Right. Yes. 

 

JP: I’m so lucky to have you in my life. You have helped me. 

 

TP: I’m going to start crying. 

 

JP: don’t cry, don’t cry.

 

TP: Yeah, 

 

TP: thank you Jeffrey. 

 

JP: I love you.

 

TP: I love you, too. 

 

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KK: Jeff and Tony came back to record a second time… over a decade later… in 2022.. 

The country had changed… and so had they… 

 

TP: Lots has happened. I’ve gotten older. I can’t believe I’m 82 years old, And I mean, in my life, I never thought I would see marriage equality come.

 

JP: No?

 

TP: But it did. And there’s real danger I think now, that that may be taken away from us.

 

And also, uh your grandma passed away about a month ago, which was very hard. We were still very good friends. 

 

JP: Yeah. When I think of the big family you’ve created and nurtured, you’ve always held the family together in hard times. And I’m proud of you for that. 

 

 

JP: What is being a gay man mean to you in this stage of your life? 

 

TP: Just being as authentic as I can be. I have no fear in coming out to people now. But, I’m fearful that I’m going to be alone. 

 

My long term relationship ended at about six months ago. It was a 22 year relationship, and I’m still grieving that. And I’m fearful that I’ll never have the intimacy or the closeness with another person. 

 

But I’m very fortunate in that I have a very supportive family. ‘Cause a lot of gay men, family men, uh who come out, lose that.

 

JP: Right.

 

TP: And I never did. 

 

 

 

TP: I’m very proud of my part in your growing up. I can sometimes say that’s probably why I was put on this earth. 

 

JP: yeah. I know that.

 

Not many grandsons and grandfathers could say, you know, I mean, you literally paved the way for me. You’ll be my guiding light in the light of my life’s choices. Because you’ve always been.

 

<MUSIC>

KK: That was Tony Perri and his grandson, Jeff Perri…

After the break…

TEASE:

RH: How would you identify yourself? 

CB: Gay black male. I still don’t like the term gay. I prefer same gender loving, but, I can openly say it now when there was a time I couldn’t. 

KK: Stay with us…

 

<MIDROLL>

 

KK: Having someone you can confide in is really important, especially when that person is someone you genuinely trust… and someone who can relate to what you’re going through…

Claude Bowen grew up and lived most of his life in Los Angeles… and when he was 58 he went through a breakup and moved to Atlanta, Georgia, to be closer to his grandchildren. 

There, he met Richard Hutchinson… in a support group… for gay Black men who were HIV positive…

 

KK: They came to StoryCorps in 2016… to talk about their experiences coming out and how it shaped them… 

We’ll start with Claude…

 

CB: You know, I used to be teased by the kids. So I’d sit around on the porches with the women in the neighborhood, and I picked up their mannerisms, their gossip. And my flair for clothes came from women. I thought they were fascinating. 

 

When they would talk about the girl down the street and the woman down the street, that was a loose woman… and some of them, their husbands were messing around with me so I was the woman that they were talking about. 

 

One chased me with a razor. And I never told my mother why that woman was chasing me. And that was really, really scary because I believe if she’d a caught me, she’d a cut me, and the thing about it is I don’t think she did anything to him. It was my fault. 

 

RH: Yeah. and I think that we mess with these guys who out in public, don’t want to even acknowledge our presence,

 

CB: Mm hmm.

 

RH: But yet behind closed doors, they want the benefits of our bodies. Right?

 

CB: Right. And it’s really, really a horrible feeling to be with somebody. You see them out, and they won’t even acknowledge you, not even say hello. You don’t have to acknowledge that we’ve been together, but you… I’ve been through that and I know what that feels like. That’s a lonely feeling. 

 

KK: Despite the culture of the 1950s… Claude didn’t repress himself…and he didn’t care about what the consequences might be.

CB: My style of clothing has always had a feminine flair, 

 

RH: hm hmm.

 

CB: And that made my mother uncomfortable. She didn’t want me going. family functions. I could see when I walked in the house that she was just terrified of what I might have on. Or what I might say. That really, really drains you, trying to fit in.

 

My sister was going to send me to a therapist, but I said I’m not sick. 

 

RH: Mm hmm. 

 

CB: She had lots of gay friends. She just could not handle the fact that I was gay. 

 

And my parents felt that they had done something wrong. They didn’t understand that I am who I am. That’s not a birth defect. But when you hear it enough. Wow. 

Did any of those messages ever fall on you and impact how you see yourself? 

RH: Yeah. It was so hard, like growing up. 

For me, there were times where I just wanted to be around the girls, you know, going down the street, playing double dutch playing hopscotch. My mom would notice things like that. And I remember times when she would literally like take me by the collar of my neck and throw me up against the refrigerator. I’m like, ‘You’re not going to be gay’. As if to beat it out of me or push it out of me. 

And I know now we have more freedoms, you know, than your generation. But, I think that being a Black man, first of all, it comes with things that we have to deal with every day and then trying to identify as a gay man. And, you know, being a black gay man goes against black masculinity, right?

CB: Right. 

RH: I’m just trying to be a, a young, educated, wholesome Black boy. And, it was so hard. 

And you know, my parents feelin like they did something wrong, like they didn’t raise me the right way because my father must have like allowed me to become a gay man. And it was just like, ‘no’, like my father has been the greatest example of Black male I’ve ever had. 

And something that I often don’t talk about is that I have a seven year old son. And in the eyes of my son. There’s no judgment. 

CB: Right.

RH: There’s no there’s no hatred. There’s no there’s no gay this, less than a man that, there’s just that this is my father. 

CB: Period. 

RH: Period. And I think that he’s more accepting of me than I am of myself. But now, I’m able to sit down with my father, who is a Black male, and identify wholeheartedly who I am as a person and him not see me less than a man. 

CB: I never faced my father… We never had that conversation.

<MUSIC>

KK: As if Claude wasn’t dealing with enough already … the AIDS epidemic started…when he was in his 30s… 

Suddenly gay men were dealing with the added stigma of HIV and AIDS… It was initially referred to as “The Gay Cancer”… and Claude remembers this time with a lot of heartbreak…

And just a note… part of this story mentions suicide.

CB: When HIV first hit, we said it was a white boy’s disease, until our friends started dying. And the way that the hospital staff treated people in those days, the doctors and nurses came in with surgical masks and gloves.  And many brothers that were HIV positive just withdrew. And they did not want to go into treatment because of the way the medical profession treated them. 

 

RH: Mm hmm.

 

CB: You know, I have buried a lot of folk…that was so beaten. One of my younger brothers found out he was HIV positive and he sat on his patio and blew his brains out. And he was about your age. The stigma is so great. 

 

KK: Claude tested positive for HIV in the late-80s…

 

And has worked in the community… to prevent HIV infection since his diagnosis… 

 

So when he met Richard – who had just been diagnosed – he found someone who he could mentor…

RH: How do you think HIV impacts the attitudes of the Black gay community? 

CB: I think there’s a lot of ‘ Nobody wants me. Because I’m damaged good.’ And that other message, ‘you deserve that. That’s your punishment. God is punishing you.’ We internalize all of that. 

RH: Man I mean, I’m openly HIV positive, young, gay, black man, and if I can openly talk about being positive, it opens doors for so many more conversations. But there was this very fine man that I was trying to talk to, and he was like, ‘you shouldn’t tell people your business like that.’ And I was just like, ‘I love your concern. I get it. But you have to understand that I’m not doing this just for me. I’m doing this for our community.’ And he couldn’t wrap his mind around why I wanted to disclose that type of information.

CB: You know, I applaud you for being that open. But it also saddens me that at 26 that you’re infected. 

 

RH: Mm hmm. 

 

CB:  That means that we didn’t do as good a job that we thought we did because you shouldn’t be, you know? 

 

RH: Yeah. But for me, just having a older Black gay men in my life is not only empowering, like, I can look forward to being a 68 year old black gay man who’s living with HIV. Right? I appreciate being able to have that role model that you weren’t able to have. 

 

I can see the future in you. So this brotherhood is something that pushes me every single day to have someone like you in my life. 

 

CB: And I’m glad that we’re in each other’s lives. 

 

KK: That was Claude Bowen and his friend Richard Hutchinson… at StoryCorps in 2016…. 

They’re both leaders in organizations helping to prevent the spread of HIV.

And they’re still friends.

That’s all for this episode of the StoryCorps podcast. 

 

It was produced by Jey Born and edited by Jarrod Sport, who’s our senior producer. Eleanor Vassili is our lead producer. Our technical director is Jarrett Floyd, who also composed our theme song. Max Jungreis is our associate producer. Erika Anderson is our fact-checker. Our story consultant is Jasmyn Morris. Special thanks to Jeremy Helton, Jo Corona, and Brittany Bromfield.

To see what music we used in the episode… go to StoryCorps – dot – org… where you can also check out original artwork by Lyne Lucien.

 

For the StoryCorps podcast, I’m Kamilah Kashanie. Catch you next week.