StoryCorps 486: The Other Side

Michael Garofalo (MG): This is the StoryCorps podcast. I’m Michael Garofalo.

We’re just days away from the 2016 presidential election.  And if we’ve learned anything during this campaign, it’s how deeply divided we seem to be. For people on both sides it can seem like the other side is living in an alternate universe, right? I mean, if you look at those red versus blue Facebook feeds, you’re probably shocked at how far apart we are on seemingly every issue. It’s like there have been these two stories running parallel to each other and rarely, if ever, do they meet.

We’ve been talking about this a lot here at StoryCorps. We’ve been saying that maybe the most important conversations we could be having right now are the ones that just aren’t happening — between people who can’t see eye to eye.

Now, in most StoryCorps conversations, the two people talking really aren’t in conflict. Maybe they were in the past, but it’s been resolved and they’re reflecting on what happened. But we wanted to know what would happen if two people, in the midst of this divisive election, who were in almost complete disagreement, tried to do a StoryCorps interview.

And we wondered, what if the conversation weren’t about policy points or ideology? What if the conversation wasn’t about trying to win an argument? What if we sat down with someone whose political leanings seem totally incomprehensible to us, and we try to understand where they are coming from? Maybe you think that’s a little idealistic or naive, but who knows, it might move us forward a little bit. It might be a little grease on the gears.

So, we went looking in the place where these kinds of conversations can get the most heated: families.

Of course, conventional wisdom says you don’t talk politics with family. If you vote Democrat and your brother votes Republican, just avoid the topic at all costs for the sake of peace. But we put a call out on social media for people who disagreed with a family member about politics and might be willing to sit down with them. One of the people who responded was Jenn Stanley.

Jenn is 29.  She’s a writer and she’s liberal.  And, full disclosure, she used to work at StoryCorps, though she doesn’t work here anymore. Her father, Peter, works construction in Boston, and he’s conservative. They’ve been fighting a lot about politics this election season and it’s taken a real toll on their relationship.

So, just last week, they recorded a conversation about why they’ve been fighting so much, and to try to find some common ground.

Jenn Stanley (JS): I try to not bring up politics. But you always watch like the 5 o’clock news and the minute any politician steps on, it doesn’t matter who it is, I just cringe and…

Peter Stanley (PS): Me, too. [laughs]

JS: Yeah, but you have to say something, whereas I would like to just pretend it’s not happening…

PS: Well, you’re the adult.

JS: [laughs] You’re the adult! I’m the child.

PS: Oh, ok. I, I think I get that from my father. I remember him watching the Watergate hearings, glued to the TV, calling everybody a liar and… [laughs]… So maybe the answer is we don’t watch the news while you’re there.

JS: Maybe.

PS: You know?

JS: But now I feel like we’ve gotten to this point where we’re together and we are fighting about politics.

PS: And those would be the times when I hear you say, “I can’t even talk to you, Dad.” And to be honest with you, I get a little bit miffed when you say you can’t talk to me, but I… if you’re going to get so angry and and flip out about it then, you know what, I’d rather you didn’t talk to me.

JS: But see, this is what drives me crazy, though. Because you… you… I am not the only one yelling in our conversations.

PS: I definitely voice my opinions…

JS: But you start these conversations…I

PS: Well, I ask questions. What do you think about this and what do you think about that? It’s me trying to glean information from somebody who is significantly more educated than I am and whose opinions I trust. I don’t think I intentionally talk about politics with you to get into an argument with you.  

JS: I’m really surprised to hear you say that. I had no idea that you were genuinely interested in what I had to say. I thought that you wanted to hear what I had to say so that you could tell me how I was wrong and also make a joke about how I was silly.

PS: Well, I would never feel that way about you. I have nothing but respect for you. I don’t agree with you all the time, I don’t agree with you most of the time, but that’s ok.

JS: One of the things we disagree on… it’s about guns. And I want to understand why it’s so important to you.

PS: You know, when I got out of the service after the Vietnam War, I started target shooting. And I think the draw for me is I find it extremely relaxing, because to do it properly you have to have total concentration, you’re not thinking about the bad day you had at work or the guy who cut you off in traffic. So when I walk away from two or three hours at the shooting range, I walk away very relaxed.

JS: It’s interesting that you say that because I am somebody, very similar to you, that, a lot of stuff is going on in my brain all the time. And I think when you talk about how you leave the shooting range, that’s how yoga for me is, like, really helpful.

PS: We have a lot of things in common. And I do know that [laughs] I do know that everything you did when you were a little kid was because you wanted to be like me. You even played softball, which you hated, because I love baseball.

JS: I did really hate it. [laughs]

PS: I know. And you know what, and I coached it. And I coached it for only one reason, not because I wanted to, but because you wanted to play it.

JS: I mean, I just really worshipped you, Dad. I just thought that everything that you thought and said was right.

PS: Um-hmm.

JS: And you were just my best friend. But I think as I got older, I realized that you were really wrong about a lot of things.

PS: Well, you’re probably right, Jenn. I’m not… I never professed to be right about everything. The important thing here to me in our relationship is that you have your own beliefs and that I respect you for your beliefs. You were raised to be a sensitive, caring person and that’s exactly who you are.

JS: You say that, and I feel loved.  But I will say, I think you used to like me and I don’t necessarily know that you like me anymore.

PS: Oh, yeah, I like you a lot. It doesn’t make me feel good that you say that. I don’t agree with everything you say and do. I like being around you more when you’re not correcting me…

JS: [Laughs]

PS: But do I like you? Yeah, you bet I do. And I’m extremely proud of you.

You know, when my time comes, ah… to say, yeah, my father was a good man, we didn’t agree politically, but, ah, he was a good man. And if you can say that, then, I’ll be happy.

JS: I don’t think that you’re right all the time, but I think you’re the best man.

PS: Thanks.

JS: And you’re the best dad.

[MUSIC – “You Know Who You Are” by Alan Singley]

MG: Jenn and Peter Stanley in Boston, Massachusetts.

Jenn now lives in Chicago. And in the interview they talked about something that I think is actually a really common dynamic in working class families. When Jenn went to college, that’s when Peter feels like she changed her views and became liberal. And Jenn talked about how going to college and living in a different city than the rest of her family makes her feel like an outsider, especially when she comes home to visit. 

And it’s during those visits that they’ve been having their fights.

Well, Jenn was home on a visit when they recorded this interview and a week has now passed.  So, we called them up to see just how the interview went for them and if it had any effect at all on how they interacted with each other.

We talked first with Peter.

PS: It was a little intense at times.  Whenever you hear one of your children telling you that there’s something about you that they don’t like, it’s not pleasant.  And that would be the most difficult part of the conversation for me.  

MG: Do you think having done this conversation that it will have any effect on the way you guys talk about politics going forward?

PS: Oh, I think Jenn will understand that when I ask her questions, I’m not trying to make fun of her or trying to goad her into arguing.  Hopefully, she understands that now.  And I will be a little more careful in the things that I say.

MG: What advice would you give, or words of wisdom would you give, to another parent who is having these kinds of arguments with their kids right now?

PS: It’s simple. If, you know, your child is your child. You love them. And if you love your child, you love them for who they are. It doesn’t matter what they think politically. You know, it’s who they are. And have respect for their opinions and listen to what they have to say. I was raised that way. My dad didn’t always agree with me, but he listened to what I had to say and respected my opinion. Maybe I’m not always successful, but I try.

MG: Are you glad you had this conversation with her?

PS: Yes, I am. I was a little apprehensive about how it was going to turn out, but in retrospect, I’m glad I had the conversation because in the future, I think our conversations could be a little easier, maybe a little less heated, and a little healthier.

[MUSIC – Scott Holmes “Nights with Amber Lights”]

MG: Next, we called up Jenn. And when I told her what her dad said about it being more intense than he expected, she had a slightly different take.

JS: I actually thought that the interview was way less intense than it was going to be. Because I was afraid that we were really going to get in a big fight and start talking over each other, which is how it usually goes with us. I felt like we were both pretty restrained. Part of why I wanted to do this interview is my family is, I just don’t think is always the best at communicating with each other. We talk about stuff and we’re close. But I wanted to do this interview to be with my dad in a space where he could hear me and I could hear him and there would be somebody there making sure we were listening to each other.  

MG: So do you feel like something different happened in this conversation?

JS: Yeah, I do. I was very surprised to hear my dad’s motivation for trying to talk to me about politics. I guess that kind of reminds me of our relationship when I was younger.  

MG: How so?

JS: You know, because my dad and I used to talk a lot. I think my dad wanted an audience for his thoughts and I was an intellectually curious child. So, it kind of felt more like that again. It felt like we were getting to the bottom of things instead of just yelling over each other.

MG: What was the hardest part of this interview for you?

JS: I find it really painful to talk to my parents about things that maybe aren’t working in our relationship or that I think they do wrong because I don’t want to hurt them. I say it because I want things to be better and I want things to be honest between us. But I don’t want it to come off as just hurtful and I think it really did hurt him. And I really hate that something I said hurt him.  

MG: Right. Well, he ultimately told us that he was really glad he did it.

JS: Oh, good!

MG: Are you glad you did the interview?

JS: I really had a great experience. I think it was difficult — it was emotionally difficult. I felt a little weird for the next couple of days, thinking about it.  

MG: I don’t know if you saw him again during that trip to Boston or not-

JS: Yeah, I was staying with them.

MG: I mean, was the news on? Was there anything slightly different about your interaction?

JS: I would say, we certainly didn’t fight. I did finally ask him who he was voting for, which I would normally say but I won’t because my dad doesn’t like to talk publicly about who he’s voting for. He thinks that’s private information. I tried not to be too upset about what he said, but I wasn’t thrilled with his answer, I should say.

But I just feel like I want to have real moments of understanding with the people that I love and I want to look back and see that we made progress. And, ultimately, at the end of the day, we really love and care for each other.  

[MUSIC – Nick Jaina “All the Best Fakers”]

MG: We owe a big thank you to Jenn and Peter Stanley for taking this on.

And we want to hear from you. Is there someone in your family you can’t agree with? Someone you’re always getting in arguments with? Leave us a voicemail and tell us how you handle it. And let us know if you’d be willing to try to do a StoryCorps interview like this one. The election, hopefully, will be over on November 9th, but these divisions won’t.

The number to call is the number to call is 301-744-Talk. That’s 301-744-T-A-L-K. You can also leave a message for Jenn and Peter or anyone else you hear on this podcast.

[MUSIC – Jean Luc Hefferman “A Storm at Eilean Mor”]

That’s all for this episode.

I produced this story with help from Alletta Cooper and the podcast is produced by me and Elisheba Ittoop.

Thanks so much to PRX, the Public Radio Exchange, and their podcast garage in Boston, where we recorded Jenn and Peter.

Rate or review us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, and head over to our website, www.storycorps.org, to schedule your own interview.

Until next time, I’m Michael Garofalo.

Thanks for listening.

[MUSIC]